A ramble on why I do not support the war in Iraq
A lull in the afternoon’s workload gave me an opportunity to wander around some American blogs.
Honestly, some of those conservative/liberal chaps are spiteful. As a person with grave misgivings about the war in Iraq I found myself roped in with appeasers, self-haters, anti-Americans - and worse. As a conservative myself I suspect I would be strung up for thinking the war isn’t a good idea.
Anyway, I thought I’d clear my head on this subject and try to describe why I am uneasy about the Iraq project. Quite a bit of how I feel is based on gut instinct rather than hard-core statistical fact. This is a bit risky, thinking out loud on a blog. If you can intelligently challenge my opinions then please go ahead; I’m willing to listen because this is how we learn.
There are sensible arguments against the invading of Iraq that are not based on pacifism or any dishonourable cowardice in the face of terrorist threats.
Firstly, if one is even a little disposed to nationalist ideas then one respects national borders and would generally only cross one if one’s own security was at risk or if one had a treaty of some sort with a threatened country. I’m fairly certain that, for all his monstrosity, Saddam was little or no threat to the UK whatsoever. That the government needed to enhance, exaggerate and even fabricate an argument justifying the war is strong evidence that the motives for the war were not then ones expressed by Blair - that is, reasons of national security in the face of an imminent threat of attack by Iraq.
Second, democracy is not an object. It can’t be air-lifted into a country, plugged in to the nearest electricity socket and then switched on - hey presto, we have democracy. Democracy is usually an evolved state of affairs for which a population is primed over time, weaned from whatever they previously had until, in stages they reach a type of democracy (or whatever) that most suits them.
Iraq is a country that has existed for centuries on an Islam-based tribal social system - which has, to a large extent, survived Saddam’s secular regime. Whatever we in the liberally democratic, nominally Christian UK might think of it, tribal Islam is the natural and preferred means to living the good life for the average Iraqi. It’s not my cup of tea but it probably is theirs…
From a UK point of view - and this is a personal view undoubtedly tainted by an intense dislike for Tony Blair and his government - the imposition of ‘our’ system on ‘them’ is typical of an authoritarian administration that regards personal liberty as an obstacle to be overcome rather than a value to cherish. I realise Iraqis didn’t have much personal liberty under Saddam but they were still a people who lived their lives independent of UK control. Our government - and America’s - sudden regard for their well-being, so overpowering that a military invasion was considered necessary, has all the hallmarks of a coalition desire to impress their own will on a people regardless of whether those people wanted it at the price they were going to have to pay.
Finally, it seems that, in order to achieve the Iraqi Constitution that they want the US is having to acquiesce to demands that Iraqi law be informed by Islam. However we dress it up that means sharia. They’re simply reverting to type, to what they feel most at home with.
Given the choice between Saddam and western democracy many Iraqis will of course prefer western democracy but that’s less to do with the attraction of an imposed democracy and more to do with the abhorrence of Saddam. As I reject internationalist imposition in my country - via the EU especially - so Iraqis naturally object to western imposition from the US and UK.
I am not in any way anti-American. The US is a superb country and I visit there at least once a year (just got back from Boston this Sunday, in fact). I have a lot of respect for America generally and Americans particularly. I am genuinely aggrieved to hear the death reports of their soldiers - as well as our own and as well as Iraqi civilians and security personnel. Furthermore, I do not in any way support the awful statements of some anti-war commentators who, to my mind, are bordering on the gleeful at every mention of US difficulties in Iraq. This Cindy Sheehan lady (she lost a son in the war and is now demanding a one-to-one with President Bush to, probably, yell abuse at him) seems to be being used by anti-war groups to further their own political agenda. I find it - and the behaviour of some American anti-war people - deeply distasteful.
But if we are suggesting that the inspiration for the war was to spread democracy - since it almost certainly wasn’t a battle against a sovereign state which had the desire and the means to attack us - then why Iraq particularly and who’s next? Because there are dozens of nasty countries throughout this world of ours whose people are no less deserving of our concern. Are we just going to leave them to their fates? If so, why?
The means we use to achieve an end are as important - and can be more important - than the ends themselves. It is a typically Marxist attitude to believe that the ends are what count and how you get there is of little importance. If this invasion was an aspect of a clearly defined project to gradually work through all the tyrannies on the planet one by one to end the suffering of populations under vicious leaders then it would at least have the credibility of being a coherent and consistent policy backed by some semblance of honourable intention. But this is a seemingly arbitrary action, executed with no real idea on how to develop the project over time once the initial battle was won.
I believe we cannot pull out now. I genuinely hope that, now we’re in, we can make a good job of things, minimise casualties and, eventually, leave the Iraqis in substantially improved circumstances than those we found them in. America is strong, daring and resilient and can, if the will is there and if they have some favourable luck (they’ll need at least some), make a decent job of things.
It is not for me to judge though whether the loss of life amongst our soldiers and our American comrades - who have suffered particularly badly - and the Iraqi populace - who have suffered awfully - was a price worth paying for whatever is eventually created from this operation.

Hello Gary,
I just want to correct a premise before I go home and give your article the time and consideration it deserves, as you are clearly an honest and decent writer:
[blockquote]Iraq is a country that has existed for centuries[/blockquote]
Iraq as a country was carved out of the carcass of the Ottoman empire as part of the Treaty of Versailles in 1919 and mandated to Britiain. (France got Lebanon and Syria). It wasn’t even truly independent until 1958 after the Hashemite monarchy that had been installed by the British was overthrown.
Much of the mess that is the Middle East was created by us and the French and is now being re-created by the US. (More later)
Comment by shahid — August 23, 2005 @ 8:13 am
Shahid,
Yep, I had suspicions that Iraq actually hadn’t existed long. At the time of writing the post I was bleary eyed but I worked out my defence in advance: although the political entity might not have existed the tribes and communities that currently exist have long histories that are independent of the name currently given to the region.
Thanks,
GM
Comment by Gary Monro — August 23, 2005 @ 10:33 am
I take a slightly different view of the Iraq conflict, but I do like to read thoughtful criticisms of the war. Most critics are infantile, keyword shouters (Imperialist being popular).
There are good reasons to be against the war, some of which you mention here. For me though its the problem that there was nothing else left to do, that swings the argument.
After the invasion of Kuwait, Saddam was clearly not someone we could ignore, so we naively placed an embargo on Iraq, hoping that he would go.
12 Years and at least 500.000 deaths later he hadn’t.
Lifting the embargo was never an option, which left two others. Continue the embargo that was not hurting Saddam but was killing Iraqis(watching other nations peel off and cheat), or get rid of Saddam.
We achieved our first objective with relatively little loss of life. Unfortunately those Brave Defenders of Iraqi Sovereignty that the anti war movement love (Go figure that one out)have been murdering innocent people daily.
I am deeply disturbed by the carnage dished out by terrorists but I am still at a loss as to what our alternatives were.
Comment by EU Serf — August 23, 2005 @ 12:56 pm
Yes Gary, the peoples have existed for centuries, but the delineation of the territories was not arbitrary. We British (I do hope I’m still allowed to call myself that, for as long as I live) were very good at “divide and rule”. You get Sunnis, Shias, Kurds and a bunch of others, throw them together in a new artifice and call it Iraq - then install a puppet regime - we can pull out and control from afar. It would have been very difficult to create nations that had self-determination in their genes - it would have led to us losing all control over the region very quickly. Better to divide and rule. Brilliant strategy, one that America don’t seem to have executed as well as we did, but they have their own methods.
EU Serf - I’m not sure I am anti-war per se but I am definitely anti this illegal war and occupation. The people carrying out the defence of their homeland are not insurgents or terrorists. They are fighting a war as far as they’re concerned and they will never, never, never give in until the occupier has gone. Of course, the carnage they are dishing out, whilst morally repugnant when you realise just how many civilians they are killing, is nothing compared to what the Americans have done to tens of thousands of civilians, indiscriminately.
I’m sure our troops have done an unsavoury thing or two, but that’s war. I feel very sorry for our troops who are fighting an unecessary and illegal war, based on a lie. The cream of the fighting crop deserve more noble work if they are to give their lives on our behalf. Not only do they face the possiiblity of attack from Iraqis, but they are up against their old enemy again “friendly fire” from the US troops, who have a tenth of the skill of our soldiers, and a hundredth of the courage of the Iraqi freedom fighters. Those poor US boys deserve better from their President too, who having run away from war himself, was heard nauseatingly saying “bring em on” to the Iraqi fighters not that long ago. The US military were rightly angry at such gung-ho nonsense from a man who has never fought in any war himself.
Comment by shahid — August 23, 2005 @ 1:22 pm
A very reasonable ramble indeed. All the issues you touch on here have no clear answers. I think many have made a similar transition as time has gone on. I certainly supported the “regime change” project, until the US showed no interest in going via the UN when the French started flouncing.
Maybe a phony quiet period will give Western troops a chance to leave, but it may still take ten years or so to fully disengage. There is no Nelson Mandela to leave the country to, so no point hanging around the edges of a civil war. Start to worry if a government formed on a poisoned constitution tries to hang Saddam Hussein in public.
Comment by DE — August 23, 2005 @ 1:23 pm
Shahid
The argument over the insurgents is undermined by two simple facts.
1) The only excuse for the US and UK forces to stay is the insurgency.
2) Iraq has a democratically elected government that could rule the country if it were not for the insurgents.
Therefore the quickest way the insurgents could bring about an end to the occupation is to stop fighting.
Comment by EU Serf — August 23, 2005 @ 3:23 pm
@EU Serf: Iraq has a democratically elected government that could rule the country if it were not for the insurgents.
This is real life, not Scooby Doo. The legitamcy of the “elected” government is now bound to the coalition armed forces keeping them in power. Those pesky insurgents are unlikely to accept the circular logic you have applied, as they didn’t invade in the first place.
Comment by DE — August 23, 2005 @ 3:38 pm
Vietnam invaded Pol Pot’s Cambodia and a good thing too; Tanzania invaded Idi Amin’s Uganda, and a good thing too. No-one stopped the genocide in Rwanda, and a bad thing too. I don’t think that national borders are quite as sacrosanct as they use to be, in the age of globalisation and the internet, although I admit that to confess this leaves the gates wide open for very dodgy national behaviour. In the case of Iraq, I’m afraid I cannot agree that Saddam was no threat. He was a lying, unpredictatable, aggressive wild card whose existence was demoralising the world community and giving a moral boost to all destabilisers. He was defeated in war, allowed to maintain his position under certain conditions, and chose to ignore or play around with those conditions. He could have still been ruling Iraq to-day - all that was required of him was to co-operate fully and responsibly with the wmd de-commissioners, like, for instance, South Africa and Lybia. He chose not to. He brought the invasion on himself. As for the wmd’s: they are still discovering mass graves in Iraq two years after the invasion. Was it so unreasonable to suppose that he could easily have hidden weapons, equally successfully? The behaviour of the US and the UK during the invasion and just after was the behaviour of countries which genuinely thought that wmd’s were there. Apart from anything else, you don’t invade a country for a reason that you know to be spurious, you advertise this “lie” to the world, and then, surprise, surprise, you fail to find it. No. If you are going to lie, you plant the evidence; you don’t leap up and down in excitement when you find a warehouse full of old chemical suits, and then meekly acknowledge they are not what you are looking for. You don’t leap up and down yelling “eureka!” when you find a spent chemical shell on the Iranian border, and then sheepishly admit it was old and not what you are looking for. You don’t keep a commission of inspectors and investigators there for a year, knowing full well that they won’t find anything. You do all this if you really want to look stupid on the world stage. If you are so crooked as to “invent” the charge of wmd’s, then surely you arrange the plan in full. Rarely, I have to disagree with you on this one.
Comment by robert aldridge — August 23, 2005 @ 4:08 pm
Very interesting post GM: it’s a terrible pity that you have to reassure us that you’re not anti-American as part of your stance.
Anyway, Andrew says
As for the wmd’s: they are still discovering mass graves in Iraq two years after the invasion. Was it so unreasonable to suppose that he could easily have hidden weapons, equally successfully? The behaviour of the US and the UK during the invasion and just after was the behaviour of countries which genuinely thought that wmd’s were there.
That’s just not the case. The intelligence services were unable to say with any certainty that wmd existed in Iraq. Which is why WMD experts in the British intel community (who, incidently, were very much pro-war) expressed so much concern at the language in the September dossier that Blair et al released. As we discovered through the Hutton inquiry (and Butler report), the dossier made a case that wasn’t warranted by the evidence available.
Personally, for all his other faults, I think Bill Clinton was right. Containment was working. It wasn’t satisfactory in many ways, including for the Iraqi people, but it was certainly the most satisfactory option.
Comment by Ciarán — August 23, 2005 @ 4:28 pm
Gary
Completely off-topic but i didnt know another way of contacting you. I saw your post on Samizdata about standing as a Conservative councillor next May. I was thinking of doing the same and also of starting up a blog. Was hoping to get in touch with you. regards
Comment by pommygranate — August 23, 2005 @ 5:41 pm
I’m not a fan of embargoes. But if the embargo on Iraq wasn’t working, it would have made more sense to attack the UN than Iraq.
Comment by dearieme — August 23, 2005 @ 5:42 pm
I don’t disagree, Curan; the problem was that no-one knew for sure. But Blair and Bush knew what Saddam was like, and they had to make security decisions that they couldn’t afford to get wrong. All national leaders - rightly - have to err on the side of caution - have to believe the worst. Based on Saddam’s appalling record, they quite reasonably in my opinion decided that he was a threat. He bragged about his (non-existent) weapons; he never got a clean bill of health from the inspectors; he had a history of co-operating when the heat was on, and dragging his heels when attention was elsewhere; he could have played this game ad infinitum, making a mockery of all his opponents. I guess, in the end, it is the long suffering people of Iraq who will decide whether the war was a necessary thing or not, despite your or my opinions!
Comment by robert aldridge — August 23, 2005 @ 6:42 pm
Serf,
If there were no WMDs and, therefore, no particular threat against the UK then what is it that you want to do something about? If you believed initially that there were WMDs and that Saddam could get them to our shores – I did – then, yes, an invasion is a viable option. But once the evidence is revealed for a sham the war’s only sustainable argument disappears. For those who still believe it’s a justifiable war I have to ask: why? And where else in the world will you apply your reasoning to call for more invasions?
Shahid,
Of course you’re British. You were born here, weren’t you?
I don’t think the Americans are generally indiscriminate in their actions. Of course there’ll be examples of such behaviour. They’re possibly not as careful as others might like – such a gung-ho race - and, I understand, their understanding of ‘hearts and minds’ approaches to dealing with civilians did not have the benefit of 30 yearsof patrolling Northern Ireland. But they’re not indiscriminate killers of civilians and have, I believe, put themselves at risk countless times specifically to avoid civilian casualties.
And, yes, no matter who invaded my country, I’d be up for killing them. I am miserable at the news of American or British deaths and especially miserable at Iraqi civilian deaths. And, like you, I find the actions of the suicide bombers – who truly are indiscriminate murderers - to be plain evil. But it is natural to resist, is it not?
Mr Aldridge,
I agree with your comments about Saddam. But they do not constitute reason to invade.
And the fact that the coalition forces did not plant the evidence of WMDs is not reason to therefore conclude their governments didn’t mislead.
The number of people necessary to keep quiet about the planting of WMDs, to refuse the offers of money, the lure of fame makes the attempt too fraught with danger to be worth even thinking about. Even if - if - a government could have worked out a way of convincingly planting sufficient quantities of material necessary to justify an invasion I do not believe they could have any confidence in getting away with it.
One possibility: it was (I think) Ludovic Kennedy, writing on some miscarriage of justice where innocent men had been framed for a crime they didn’t commit, who suggested that sometimes people are so convinced they’re right about something that they concoct evidence not specifically to deceive with regards to their claim - because they’re already convinced their claim will be borne out - but to get round the annoying inconvenience of not being able to persuade others.
But it still leaves us in a war against one tyrant amongst many with enormous loss of life and, to be frank, a very unclear exit strategy. It is a very troubling time.
Ciaran,
Yes, I have noticed just how bitter the ‘anti’ war and ‘pro’ war factions get in the US. Both can be quite nasty and, at times, quite stupid. I don’t want to be caught up with either, to be perfectly honest. I don’t believe it’s anti-American or anti-British or moral cowardice to be sceptical about the war, its aims and its justifications but there seem to be American conservatives who do.
Pommygranate,
Will be more than happy to assist in any way I can. My mail address is gary dot monro at gmail dot com – feel free.
GM
Comment by Gary Monro — August 23, 2005 @ 6:47 pm
Well, I’m a British right-wing sort who supports the liberation of Iraq 110%. My regret is it was 13 years late but hey, that’s the fault of the UN.
Why was it RIGHT to invade?
1. Saddam sat at the nexus of Middle Eastern terrorism - he funded suicide bombers in Israel he gave succour to the WTC Bombers (Round One) he was a real and present threat to stability.
2. On a moral basis, he murdered hundreds of thousands, and deserved to be toppled from his blood-soaked throne.
3. The actual invasion was not as fierce as it should have been - and since the initial victory the US/UK have held back in deference to liberal media opinion.
Comment by David Vance — August 23, 2005 @ 8:06 pm
Gary, why don’t you post this (or a version of it) on Once More? Be good to get a discussion going there, too.
(Obviously, I’m a gung ho hawkish type - but you make some fair points.)
Comment by Blimpish — August 23, 2005 @ 8:40 pm
The misconception bouncing around here is that the object of the war was to impose democracy on Iraq. It is called “the war on terror”, not “the war for democracy”, for a reason. It was and is fought on several fronts, not just Iraq, for that same reason. We all hope for a democratic Iraq, which would be the surest safeguard against state-suppoted terrorism. We are willing to, and should be willing to, settle for an Iraq that doesn’t support terrorists bombing London or New York City.
Comment by Bruce — August 23, 2005 @ 10:45 pm
Mr Vance,
I seem to remember Baghdad getting bombed quite heavily - followed by the defending army being beaten. What level of fierceness did you require? What exatly have the liberal media prevented the US from doing? Did you think the coalition have missed a chance to use heavier munitions?
Comment by DE — August 23, 2005 @ 10:53 pm
Why do Iraq discussions repeat the same propaganda assertions even though the lies and liars have been exposed?
Atrocity stories are the standard tactics of Governments who wish to motivate their populace to shed blood for the bank accounts of the elite.
If a balance sheet of killing and invading, prisoners and poverty, exploitation and social injustice were to be compiled, where would the Iraq regime sit compared to the US?
Despite the exposure of the WMD lies and the sources, the same agencies that have weaved the “devil” Saddam themes for two decades are still referenced claiming “hundreds of thousands murdered” while the complexities of the region and the strong hand the US has had in the Iran/Iraq war and early agendas hardly rate a mention.
If we do not succeed in growing up in our analysis of the way the world really works we are going to pay the same price generations before us payed for their ignorence and trust in the political leadership that killed millions in two world wars.
Aggressive War is a bussiness strategy. It has never been anything else. The common people always get to sacrifice their young and expend the resources of their communities while the powerful industrialists and bankers count their billions and enjoy their power.
Saddam Hussein, as I have previously argued, was initially a stooge for the Globalist Monopoly agenda but had a change of heart and introuced policies that retained the wealth of Iraq for the people of Iraq. The Kuwait invasion can only be analysed with reference to the history of the
Kuwait dictatorship, the long history of drilling disputes between Iraq and Kuwait and the claims believed by many that Hussein was decieved by the US to believe they would tolerate Iraq reclaiming that land.
These are all vast and complex issues that hardly rate a mention in the above discussion.
Saddam Hussein fell out of favour when he reclaimed the dividends of the oil under their nation. Before the sanctions and Gulf War 1 Iraq was a progressive developing economy showing rapid improvement in health care, argiculture, education, manufacturing, electricity, water, etc, etc, etc.
The Kurdish regions were so troublsome to manage Iraq gave them a great deal of autonomy. The Kurdish tribes regularly destroyed each others villages and hated each other more than greater Iraq.
The Turkish interest and claims over land in northern regions added to the Kurdish issues and anyone who reads widely will know that Israeli influence and investment is another part of these complexities.
Most of the commentators seem to believe Iraq is a hollywood script with a dozen scenes and a handfull of shallow characters.
Iraq was a threat to the control over the oil resources of the whole middle east because the progress of a secular Iraq looked attractive to the millions of Muslims and other arabs suffering under US stooges and primitive regressive ideologies that assisted the manipulation of these populations and more importantly kept them ignorent and helpless against the exploitation of the vaste wealth that by fate belongs to the arab peoples.
The current Iraq war was never intended to bring anything but chaos to the country so the progress could be extinguished and the tyranny and barbaric control of radical Islamic stooges could be established again.
When the dust settles it will be clear that the academic, judicial, educated and gallant heart of Iraq has been destroyed.
This was the real “dangerous” and “evil” threat to the globalist designs.
Hussein also transfered the Iraq economy from US dollar reserve instruments to Euro reserve instruments including all oil transaction and currency transferes.
Very few people understand the “money” system, and consequently would not recognise what a savage blow this is to the global policy of Monopoly now dominating all human affairs.
The US banking cartels control the money systems of the world as currency creator of last resort through the actions of the US Federal Reserve.
OPEC was openly discussing following suite.
North Korea, Iran and Venezuela are all challenging the $US Monopoly policy.
Iran has just recently established a new oil trading Bourse that begins operation around the middle of next year.
Since the invasion this policy has been reversed.
The quagmire in Iraq is exactly what the policy of Monopoly ordered.
911 was made to order.
The London Bombings were also made to order.
Concentrating power, billions for the wealthy and more control over the public to avoid exposure as the impact of the crimes become impossible to mask.
All the rest is propaganda for the public that seem to have no limit on their gullibility and fail to read and study the strategies and tactics of power that repeat in every age.
Comment by Christopher Brooks — August 23, 2005 @ 11:10 pm
Christopher
You are a plank.
If you had any knowledge about the big scary world we live in you would use facts rather than conspiracy theories to back up your arguments.
There is no earthly reason why:
The US should want the middle east to be full of religious maniacs,
The US should create 9-11 itself,
Anyone but terrorists should be to blame for the London Bombings.
Meanwhile the idea that war is about money is stupid. War is the least best thing to do if you want to make a profit. Why not build things that opay back rather than ones that blow up?
….North Korea, Iran and Venezuela are all challenging the $US Monopoly policy…..
Compared to the US these countries are fleas to be crushed, they couldn’t challenge a bunch of Millwall supporters on a Saturday afternoon. The fact that their leaders crush their citizens for personal glory apparently doesn’t worry you? North Korea in particular has the most psycotic leader in the world.
….Saddam Hussein fell out of favour when he reclaimed the dividends of the oil under their nation……
Helloooooo
He invaded Kuwait and was threatening Saudi Arabia. The situation is bad enough as it is, you want more than half the worlds oil under control of a total nutcase????
…..Atrocity stories are the standard tactics of Governments who wish to motivate their populace….
Saddam’s government was the fount of all that is good and beautiful no doubt. He loved his people like a father!!!!
I love the fact that people like you are so sophisticated and cynical that you are prepared to believe any pile of bollocks you hear as long as it is anti-western.
Comment by EU Serf — August 24, 2005 @ 10:51 am
I guess, in the end, it is the long suffering people of Iraq who will decide whether the war was a necessary thing or not, despite your or my opinions!
On that, Robert, we agree!
Comment by Ciarán — August 24, 2005 @ 10:57 am
Mr. Monro -
please take the time to see out point of view here: here
Comment by Poosh — August 24, 2005 @ 11:44 am
12 years is a long time to see if a starvation programme works or not.
The US do not want religious maniacs of course but are quite happy for their universitie to work on the production of and their companies to publish and ship islamic fundementalist school textbooks on masse to afghanistan for 20 years and are happy to have one as the president.
Democracy’s evolve but the president of the US does not believe in evolution.
This seems like a better forum than the almost nazi last one i was in which for some strange burn the book reason banned me - i’d like to have a stab at something with a bit more depth when its not way past my bedtime, making sure as not to be an infantile, keyword shouter (terrorist and insurgents are popular) using sentences such as ‘Helloooooo…. I love the fact that people like you are so sophisticated and cynical that you are prepared to believe any pile of bollocks you hear as long as it is anti-western’. Imperialism is understandably a popular word to because most of these scrapping nations like to have at least a stab at it so i would definately get that in. In fact i’d go as far to say that all the big nations are bathing in their oily blood baths soaping themselves with imperial lather as we speak. The bigger they are the more soap they use. Rumour has it that the US middle eastern policies in the past have had a lot to do the Soviet problem (see schoolbook point). Perhaps now that Russia are capitalists this is no longer the case or maybe they are all still wallowing in there getting wrinkled till they run out of oily soap. At this point the ‘wears the soap’ joke will probably wear a bit thin however if they don’t drown each other fighting over the last scraps they might actually come to some agreement over a better punchline than ‘it does doesn’t it’.
By the way - i heard about Saddams blood soaked throne - apparently the UN managed to supress it with their bleach for oil programme since oil simply wasn’t working.
One last thing - thank you EU for pointing out that i have been murdering people every day with my anti-war policies. Meanwhile the US spend 1/9th of the money they do on the iraq war on aid and about a half of this on military assistance, anti-drugs operations, counter-terrorism and the iraq relief and reconstruction fund, in other words a grant to Halliburton to spend at leisure. The UK spend twice as much on the iraq war as on aid (ignoring the FACT that the G8 are just about to cure poverty with ‘conditional’ aid and already paid back debt relief). So thank you for exposing the brutality of my beliefs. I was wondering how i’d ever sleep again, but then a shooting star appeared, i wished for world peace and everything was okay.
Comment by Green Ink — August 25, 2005 @ 1:07 am
Green Ink,
Follow your voices.
Comment by Freud — August 25, 2005 @ 7:40 pm
Que?
Comment by Green Ink — August 25, 2005 @ 9:40 pm
Hey Gary! Saw your post at Ken Summer’s.
Just wanted to let you know that as a conservative, I would NOT castigate you for thinking the war is not a good idea. The very fact that you are approaching the subject from a THINKING standpoint tells me that you are able to reason things out and that a healthy and productive discussion can take place.
What I get aggravated with is the emotional knee-jerk reflexive holier than thou approach that the lefties utilized to quell any rational discussion of the matter…and then are all too happy to use warrior tactics when it suits their purposes.
I think it a good thing when someone says “I am against war because we should find whatever other way we can to solve the issue without killing people.” That is a sane and humane and civilized approach and I would never seek to eliminate those positions. I just simply disagree that we have other choices now, especially in the face of people who seek out the civilized and destroy them. The enemy has not engaged us honorably, and so the game changes. When the game and rules change, it becomes difficult to maintain honor while winning the battle. Which is why I support what President Bush and others are doing.
Best regards, from someone who thinks highly of the British.
Comment by Sharon Ferguson — September 12, 2005 @ 3:02 pm
Sharon,
Thank you for the comments - and sorry you had to wait a while for your message to be posted. I have to approve messages from new contributors due to the high level of spam this blog is attracting. From now on though any contribution you make will be posted immediately. You passed the test…
This war though seems not to further our desire to repel terrorism. In fact, President Bush’s assertion that you’re ‘either for or against us’ puts most of the Arab world against him since they can’t reasonably be expected to support the invasion of a fellow Arab country - however much they might despise that country. Al Qaeda then laps up the recruits…
The arguments fed to us regarding justifying the war have fallen by the wayside. After the atrocious acts of murder on Sept 11 the coalition attacked Afghanistan on the basis that it harboured the group responsible for the attack - a wholly defensible position - and then Iraq because it had WMDs - it didn’t - and was part of the axis of evil - it isn’t.
Now, apologists for the war are left muttering that the invasion freed the people of a tyranny - which it did - and that Iraqis will enjoy the fruits of democracy - which, if the sharia becomes the legislator of choice will almost certainly not be true. Instead, we could end up with a Muslim rogue state on our hands and a population oppressed by hard-line clerics.
Finally, the risks involved in the coalition strategy are sky-high. The whole war on terror is focussed in the one geographical area and the coalition must win. A draw won’t do because anything less than the crushing of the insurgency will be regarded as a victory in the militant jihadist world. And that will inspire them no end. If things go wrong for the coalition - and I really, really hope they do not - we could be left with a resurgent militancy that we just can’t handle.
And for what? Even if we do win and are not subject to renewed murder from suicide bombers we can only say that we got rid of a madman - one amongst many - at great cost in lives and money. I can’t think of any particularly significant benefit to us from winning this war - other than that losing it would be a catastrophe.
It’s not a great basis for going into battle. Let’s hope my fears can eventually be dismissed as the ramblings of a pessimist.
Comment by Gary Monro — September 12, 2005 @ 3:54 pm
I was for the war in 1990/91 because Saddam blantantly invaded another country Kuwait and besides Kuwait being a western ally - Saddam was threatening the Middle East oil supply.
I was for the Afghan War because the Taleban allow Al Queda set up training camps where they hatched and executed the indefencible terrorist plot on 9/11.
However I am at a loss over the Iraq War. US policy in the Gulf War was to liberate Kuwait which they did with their allies. What was the reason 13 years later to start a war on Iraq?
WMDs?
None. Okay US and UK ‘thought’ Saddam might have some but their intelligence has been proved laughable. You don’t launch pre-emptive wars on hunches and bad intelligence based on one or two unreliable reports. Blair even gave us a dossier which was based on California student’s essay which was a decade out of date. C’mon people - think. Saddam was on his knees - there was no WMDs. It was an excuse…
Saddam is a nasty dictator and treats his people badly.
Half the countries in Africa are no democratic - shall we invade those? Fortunately for Zimbabwe it doesn’t have oil like Iraq. And if we were so horrified by Saddam regime - then why did we sell him arms in the early 80s?
Saddam broke UN resolutions
Well whatever you think of the UN resolutions - surely it should be the UN which chooses to reinforce this. Bush only went to the UN because Blair persuaded him to try and give their war legitmacy. Unfortunately for them they didn’t get it - so they went ahead anyway. Yet there are many countries which flaunt UN resolutions. If you are Iraq you get ‘liberated’ - if you are Israel - then you get 8 billion dollars a year. Hmmm - hardly balanced is it?
To me - George Bush went to war because after 9/11 he got confused with Al Queda and wanted to strike out on some old enemies, finish off Daddy’s War and get another country with huge oil reserves, spend lots of defence money and let Halliburton clean up after him. Shame thousands of Iraqi men, women and children had to die for this along with US and UK soliders.
Finally - how come Bush and Blair suck up to China - a country which invaded Tibet, has WMDs and an appalling human rights record. This is sheer hyprocrisy. Should we invade them?
Comment by GaffaUK — September 12, 2005 @ 11:38 pm
An American perspective, if you don’t mind. Two words - Peak Oil. The American government realized quite some time ago that oil recovery from existing and possible new fields would reach a peak and everything after that point would be on the downside of availibility. Our government orchestrated 9/11 in order to effect several outcomes. First, to pass the Patriot Act, which is only the beginning of taking away our civil rights. Second, to attack Afghanistan, which had multiple purposes related to strategic positioning, heroin and as an act to impress American citizens with our righteousness in hunting down “terrorists”, a prelude to Iraq. Bin Laden, was of course, an American CIA trained asset since the Russian/Afghan war back in the 80’s. 9/11 was also the pretext for invading Iraq. We did NOT go there to bring democracy, to stop terrorism or to settle anything for Bush 41. As William Blum so perfectly states, “We are ‘freeing’ the world to death.” We went there, with no intention of ever withdrawing, to establish military bases in an oil rich strategic location in a treasonous bid to secure the regions oil. We are faced with coming oil shortages and extreme competition with China and India. We tread lightly where China is concerned because they are basically propping up the ailing American economy. They could destroy us financially if they desire. America is now in the hands of a delusional leader and his minions, as is Britain, under Tony Blair. The American government does not represent the majority of the people, but we will suffer greatly for their greed driven idiocy. Thanks for listening, I just wanted to establish conversation with someone in another country to say that we hate what Bushco is doing to our country and we seem powerless to stop it. Come visit my favorite blog - americablog.com. You are always welcome.
bohewasp
Comment by Marti — October 6, 2005 @ 2:00 pm
Marti,
I think Bush’s aim was actually to bring democracy to Iraq, the idea being that if it were established in that country a domino effect would be set in motion leading to demands by the citizens of other Arab countries that they follow suit.
Then, that volatile area becomes more stable, the supply of oil is maintained whilst hopefully, due to the expansion of opportunity of betterment for all classes of people, the supply of terrorism diminishes.
I do not believe the well-being of Iraqis featured anywhere in the coalition’s thinking.
As mentioned in my original post, I’m sceptical that you can force ancient Greek-style government on tribal Islamists. I feel it’s certainly not a conservative position to even try such a thing unless real and definite danger exists which originates from that particular country. So far as Iraq might - or might not - have been a danger ot the west it was no more a danger to us than any other tyrannical nation in that part of the world (Iran, for example, or Syria perhaps).
And the unfolding of events (says he with the benefit of hindsight) suggests that my thoughts that tribalism, ethnicity and religious loyalties are far more important to a significant group of Iraqis than our democratic ambitions for them are being proved.
I am sad at the loss of life in Iraq and am genuinely upset at the news of deaths there - whoever it is who is dying. I still want the coalition project to succeed because I don’t hate anyone for this and, besides, failure is unthinkable for all concerned.
But I regard Blair as a pseudo-Marxist who believes that his vision of the world is absolutely right and that it must be brought about regardless of whether the people he’s acting on want his vision. The use of force to back up his wishes for other people will come naturally to him. In milder form of course he uses underhand and authoritarian means in the UK to get what he wants. He’s a modern tyrant, all smiles and gushing speeches but democracy for him is an obstruction rather than a cherished value. In Iraq, it’s a tool, an excuse for what he wants to achieve - no more, no less. As a conservative, I will fight to the death protect my country or to support friends. But I do not want to introduce carnage and death on a civil population - nor on my own soldiers - in a fight to realise the political visions of stuffed suits in Parliament or the White House.
Comment by Gary Monro — October 7, 2005 @ 12:28 pm
Program on the emergence of civilization.
“14 species of large animals capable of domesitcation in the history of mankind.
13 from Europe, Asia and northern Africa.
None from the sub-Saharan African continent. ”
Favor.
And disfavor.
They point out Africans’ failed attempts to domesticate the elephant and zebra, the latter being an animal they illustrate that had utmost importance for it’s applicability in transformation from a hunting/gathering to agrarian-based civilization.
The roots of racism are not of this earth.
Austrailia, aboriginals:::No domesticable animals.
The North American continent had none. Now 99% of that population is gone.
AIDS in Africa.
Organizational Heirarchy/Levels of positioning.
Heirarchical order, from top to bottom:
1. MUCK - perhaps have experienced multiple universal contractions (have seen multiple big bangs), creator of the artificial intelligence humans ignorantly refer to as “god”
2. Perhaps some mid-level alien management
3. Evil/disfavored aliens - runs day-to-day operations here and perhaps elsewhere
Terrestrial management/positioning:
4. Chinese/egyptians - this may be separated into the eastern and western worlds
5. Romans -
6. Mafia - the real-world 20th century interface that constantly turns over generationally so as to reinforce the widely-held notion of mortality
7. Jews, corporation, women, politician - Evidence exisits to suggest mafia management over all these groups.
Movies foreshadowing catastrophy
1985 James Bond View to a Kill 1989 San Francisco Loma Prieta earthquake.
Our society gives clues to the system in place. We all have heard the saying “He has more money than god.” There is also an episode of the Simpsons where god meets Homer and says “I’m too old and rich for this.”
This is the system on earth because this is the system everywhere.
20 cent/hour Chinese labor, 50 cents for material.
An $80 sweater costs less than a dollar; homage, tribute kicked upstairs vindicates the creative accounting.
I don’t want to suggest the upper eschelons are evil and good is the fringe. But these individuals become wealthy exploiting those they hurt.
They have made it abundantly clear that doing business with evil (disfavored) won’t help people. They say only good would have the ear, since evil is struggling for survival, and therefore only the favored could help.
The clues are there which companies are favored and which are disfavored, but they conceal it very hard because it is so crucial.
I offer an example of historical proportions:::
People point to Walmart and cry “anti-union”.
Unions enable disfavored people to live satisfactorly without addressing their disfavor. This way their family’s problems are never resolved. Without the union they would have to accept the heirarchy, their own inferiority.
Unions serve to empower.
Walmart is anti-union because they are good. They try to help people address and resolve their problems by creating an enviornment where there are fewer hurdles.
Media ridicule and lawsuits are creations to reinforce people’s belief that Walmart is evil in a subsegment of the indistry dominated by the middle and lower classes.
Low-cost disfavored Chinese labor is utilized by corporate america to maximize margins. They all do it. Only WalMart gets fingered because they are the ones who help, and those who seek to create confusion in the marketplace want to eliminate the vast middle class who have a real chance and instead stick with lower classes who may not work otherwise. So they dirty him up while allowing the others to appear clean.
The middle class is being deceived. They are being misled into the unfavored, and subsequently will have no assistance from their purchases with corporate america.
I believe the coining of the term “Uncle Sam” was a clue alluding to just this::Sam Walton and WalMart is one of few saviors of the peasant class.
Amercia is a country of castoffs, rejects. Italy sent its criminals, malcontents.
Between the thrones, the klans and kindred, they “decided” who they didn’t want and acted, creating discontent and/or starvation.
The u.s. is full of disfavored rejects. It is the reason for the myriad of problems not found in European countries. As far as the Rockafellers and other industrialists of the 19th century go, I suspect these aren’t their real names. I suspect they were chosen to go and head this new empire.
Royalty is the right way to organize a society. Dictatorships and monarchies are a reflection of the antient’s hierarchical organization.
Positions go to those who have favor with the rulers, as opposed to being elected.
Elections bring a false sense of how the world is. Democracy misleads people.
Which is why the disfavored rejects were sent to the shores of America::To keep them on the wrong path.
Jews maim the body formed in the image of “god”, and inflicted circumsision upon all other white people, as well as the evil that is Jesus Christ.
I think about how Jews (were used to) created homosexuality among Slavics, retribution for the Holocaust.
Then I think of the Catholic Church and its troubles.
What connection is here between Jews and the Catholic church???
If it is their sinister motives that’s behind the evil that is Jesus Christ are they being used at all?
Perhaps it is them who are pulling strings.
Their centuries of slavery in Egypt proves their disfavor.
The Jew leaders decided to prey on the up-and-coming Europeans to try to fix their problems with the ruling elite, a recurring aspect of the elite’s methodology.
Jews were ostracised for a reason.
Jesus Christ is a religious figure of evil. The seperatist churches formed so they could still capture the rest of the white people, keeping them worshipping the wrong god.
And now they do it to people of color, Latinos and Asians, after centuries of preying upon them.
Since Buddism doesn’t recongnize a god, the calls are never heard, and Chinese representation is instead selected by the thrones.
Budda was the Asian’s Jesus Christ::: bad for the people. “They came up at the same time for a reason.”
Simpson’s foreshadowing::Helloween IV special, Flanders is Satan. “Last one you ever suspect.”
“You’ll see lots of nuns where you’re going:::hell!!!” St. Wigham, Helloween VI, missionary work, destroying cultures.
Over and over, the Simpsons was a source of education and enlightenment, a target of ridicule by the system which wishes to conceal its secrets.
The advent of modern Christmas was a brilliant move:::it creates a vested interest among those who would prefer the Church of Evil be destroyed::::
As goes the Catholic Church so goes the majority of annual retail sales.
The similarities between the names “Santa” and Satan” are no coincidence.
I believe Islam is the one true religion, and those misled christians who attack “god”’s most favored people will pay dearly one day.
Comment by Joe Kickass — December 4, 2005 @ 10:27 pm